[youngsmith53]

If it were summer, I'd be jealous as hell over your car being able to keep the IATs BELOW ambiet during most of your commute, damn!

Do you use cruise control, or have a lot hills? I ask because your throttle position is all over the place. If you can clean that up and smooth it out, your MPGs will shoot up.

Lot of hills as well as the end part of my morning commute (beginning of my evening commute) is about 5 miles of stop lights so it all depends on how I hit them. Also the starting out of my evening commute it s alot of what my buddy an I do with our "racing"... so yeah that is why my throttle positions are all over the place. As far as cruise control, its a love hate relationship with the cruise. I would love to use it more, but it is a pain with PA's drivers always riding up my ass... I'll have to do some torque app testing with some hyper-miling like I was doing at the end of the summer

With the way it currently sits though with this months worth of gas and everything, I have averaged 35.5 MPG's through out this month, 37 from the first tank (11-01 through 11-12) and 34 from this current tank (11-12 through 11-21) which I need to fill up... I did get gas the morning of 11/12 and haven't needed to fill up since then... but I will be when I get back from Vacation.

 

[Bullfrog]

note on gas mileage, if you use starscreams fillup method (full!!!) you will get more mileage, im supprised how much more gas/more miles im getting.

Also Starscream, the data is compressed alot, its a lot of data points smooshed into a plot. the longer the graph the 'smoother' it would be but as it stands right now its a good snap shot.

 

[youngsmith53]

note on gas mileage, if you use starscreams fillup method (full!!!) you will get more mileage, im supprised how much more gas/more miles im getting. Also Starscream, the data is compressed alot, its a lot of data points smooshed into a plot. the longer the graph the 'smoother' it would be but as it stands right now its a good snap shot.

Yeah, all I ever do is so full fills when I am getting gas, I run Aya as fast as I know I can with my calculations and then fill'er up... I'll scan my data book from Aya in one day, all her fillups and mods in one nice book

 

[Underground]

Colder Thermostats

@youngsmith53I know how you feel I think I am done with mods until next spring then it's stage 2 cams, crower springs and retainer, and SVT damper time. Not a bad idea to hold off on that, you will lose some coolant in the process and Mopar HOAT coolant is 80 bux (though I believe Zerex G05 is the same stuff which can be had for cheaper). As hot as these cars run I don't believe he will have a problem running a 180*deg t-stat. I'm sure you all know the car will reach it's operating temp no matter what t-stat you are using, the 180* t-stat just keeps things safer and reduces the risk of knock (more noticible with a tune). I am pretty sure the 1.4 has a beefier radiator as it is turbocharged like the older turbo Dodges did. And yes you are right about losing MPG with mods, as you add mods without a tune you are slowly (not putting your engine in danger until you do header) leaning out your engine each time. Be sure that whoever is selling you that header offers some type of compensation tune for it or you will be leaning out your engine, and yes you can lean out your engine on an n/a application. Be looking to get a wideband too, I believe I gave you information on that already and which one to get. With a tune you will get your MPG back tenfold and get driveability you never knew existed in your car. Lets hope SCT gets off their butt. @Bullfrog , we will be doing some real datalogging and tuning once SCT gets on board, call them up and tell them you are interested in Dart 2.0/2.4 support. Suspension is one of the best things to upgrade on the Dart, its handling is pretty top notch and I would run it in sanctioned events in a heartbeat.

Well I've been reading back on this build thread And came across this here, And just though maybe I should shine just a little light on this.

Thermostat operation:
the thermostat is what governs the cooling system operation temps. It's located on or right up against the engine. It blocks off almost all flow though it Until the cooling liquid near the T-stat hits its magic number. Then it will open up and allow that cooling liquid from the engine and though the radiator. Once the cooling liquid has cooled off by running around the radiator and the temp at and around the t-stat dips just a few deg. below that magic number (lets just say 3-4 deg.) the t-stat will once again close to build the temp back up again. the thermostat could care less what the temp of coolant in the radiator is or what the temp is at the coolant temp sensor is.
They aren't designed to keep the coolant within a certain limit either, just above one. it's the fans that are used to keep it below a certain point.


How mpg's can drop with a lower temp rating:
Now....if the coolant temp sensor see's a colder temp than stock t-stat opening temp (like lets say 10 deg. or more) it will keep the fuel injectors open a few more milliseconds to help even out that air to fuel ratio. So that is how the lower temp t-stat's will just slightly lower mpg's. Also if the engine is running at a lower temp the heat soak from head to intake manifold to throttle body and finally to clean air tube wont be AS bad as normal. And when the air intake temps drop the injectors to once again open even more milliseconds. Also dropping mpg's Because of the lack of heat soak.


What if you remove it all together:
If you remove the t-stat all together the cooling is fantastic. But after so long of running like this it will throw out a code because that the engine has not reached the required temperature level to enter closed-loop operation within a specified amount of time after starting the engine. This code how ever will not change anything drive-ability wise. its more of a awareness code just in case the t-stat stuck open. And throw codes that will affect drive-ability. Even if you dont notice it.

Now short trips might be fine and you will never see the check engine light come on but after a specified amount of time after starting the engine such as on a longer trip it will set it off after a wile.

BUT A warning: the engine will now run rich causing emission equipment to prematurely wear. It will keep the fuel injectors open a few more milliseconds to help heat up the catalyst equipment. thinking its in a "warm up mode" for lack of a better term.



Past experience:
I had experimented on my mom's 2000 Ford Ranger (2WD, Auto, 3.0L flex fuel) for a few years on and off.
At first just in the summer and i would run strait water. then a 2 years stint. with coolant, well about 33.3% water 66.6% concentrate.

First the good the temp gauge wouldn't move at all in the fall/winter/spring and moved only a little above 1/8th the temp gauge at maximum in summer. And cool to the touch after running around. It ran great and the reduced pressure on the water pump which basically reduced parasitic drag on the engine. remember though that since this was an old clutch style fan it was always pulling air through the radiator. Not like the electric fans that are activated by a heat activated switch that you see with front wheel drive cars. To tell you the truth it only kicks on to keep temps a few deg below a danger point.

Now the bad, HOWEVER now after a year of having a t-stat put back in now. I have to clean the cat, its throwing a p0420. And i know why its dirty. 2 years of burning rich without a t-stat will do that. even if all 3 o2 sensors are 3 years old. and the almost $1000 custom made "header-back" 3 inch stainless steel magnaflow exhaust and how flow 3 inch cat are only 5 years old.


My Finishing Statement:
So in the end i wanted say that what was said above about "I'm sure you all know the car will reach it's operating temp no matter what t-stat you are using, the 180* t-stat just keeps things safer and reduces the risk of knock" this is not altogether true. There is no reduced knockitivity after installing one colder, The normal engine operating temp was actually just widened because the low point was lowered with the lower temp t-stat installed. BUT if the cooling fan switch is not lowered with it the temp COULD at certain times climb back up to the same point up high, and that is where the ping will most likely happen. Not down at the low end of normal operation temps. If you really want to lower the chance of ping you will want to make sure the radiator is not clogged at any point, Fuel injectors are not clogged, and lower the fan switch on point or rig it up to a switch like for instance running lights.

If I were to want to get rid of a ping or protect against it i would really clean injectors and make sure spark plugs gap is right.

If your trying to drop engine temps make sure radiator is not clogged, use a lower temp t-stat, run fan on a switch or a fuse.

If you want max mpg's leave it alone.

I will edit if you see any misspells or something, This just took a wile to type up. exept the word i just created "knockitivity"......I like it, Knockitivity.

 

[Underground]

View attachment 42144

So a buddy of mine just bought this for his Audi A4 1.8t and his engine temps are crazy low, temperatures are normally 202 when the fan kicks on and now there sitting at 180 thats pretty nice to me. And it only cost $35 I'm gonna be picking one up soon bc I'm getting the copper plugs tomorrow. What would you say the normal temp is when are fans kick on

Ah yes, this goes right along with what i was saying about fan switch. Now the one thing that i will say is that now the t-stat will be opening and closing again more frequently resulting in more wear over time which will cause the t-stat to wear out before it normally would. But over all you are supposed to replace them long before they want to malfunction anyway. So as long as you are willing to change them out every once in a wile, you know normal maintenance stuff. I dont see a problem with something like this.

Hell if you have the stock air filter assembly in it yet it "could" also lower intake air temps one to a few deg. because the stock air inlet snorkel sits right next to the radiator. which does bring cold air though the front of the car. But the heat radiating from the radiator might just raise it up 1 to a few degs.

Now I dont expect anybody to got running out and doing this because of a 1 degree drop in intake air temps. Or for that matter anybody to damn these things for wearing out a thermostat faster but i just thought I would share that EVERYTHING has a consequence. EVERYTHING.

 

[R3DMONSTER]

Ah yes, this goes right along with what i was saying about fan switch. Now the one thing that i will say is that now the t-stat will be opening and closing again more frequently resulting in more wear over time which will cause the t-stat to wear out before it normally would. But over all you are supposed to replace them long before they want to malfunction anyway. So as long as you are willing to change them out every once in a wile, you know normal maintenance stuff. I dont see a problem with something like this. Hell if you have the stock air filter assembly in it yet it "could" also lower intake air temps one to a few deg. because the stock air inlet snorkel sits right next to the radiator. which does bring cold air though the front of the car. But the heat radiating from the radiator might just raise it up 1 to a few degs. Now I dont expect anybody to got running out and doing this because of a 1 degree drop in intake air temps. Or for that matter anybody to damn these things for wearing out a thermostat faster but i just thought I would share that EVERYTHING has a consequence. EVERYTHING.

now I'm kinda stuck on how to install it Bc the dart has three wires for the fan I'm guessing it's one for a few low speed and one for a high speed and the power or ground wire. That's the only real hump I'm going over now I've already dropped themps to in between the half and 1/4 line by removing the AGS and putting hood lifters on

 

[Underground]

Can we fix it ?.....YES WE CAN !

Alright this is easier to find out than you think it is. Do you have a voltage meeter or access to one?

If not i will just find it out and show you how I did it. But I wouldn't mind telling you and others how to do this yourself.


And Josh I'm Sorry for thread jacking you, But this will only take a couple of post back and forth.

 

[R3DMONSTER]

Alright this is easier to find out than you think it is. Do you have a voltage meeter or access to one? If not i will just find it out and show you how I did it. But I wouldn't mind telling you and others how to do this yourself. And Josh I'm Sorry for thread jacking you, But this will only take a couple of post back and forth.

yes please tell me so I don't have to purchase one

 

[Underground]

Alright give me just a little time. My girlfriend messed up her knee at work on Thanksgiving. So right now im taking care of her, her disabled mother, our 6 month old son, my 5 year old son, oh and her 82 yer old grandmother by myself. But I will send you a message when I post this up. Shouldn't take too long. I'm just a tad bit busy at the moment.

 

[R3DMONSTER]

Alright give me just a little time. My girlfriend messed up her knee at work on Thanksgiving. So right now im taking care of her, her disabled mother, our 6 month old son, my 5 year old son, oh and her 82 yer old grandmother by myself. But I will send you a message when I post this up. Shouldn't take too long. I'm just a tad bit busy at the moment.

I hear you on the 6 month old my son is turning 7 months on the 16th kids are the best

 

[Underground]

I hear you on the 6 month old my son is turning 7 months on the 16th kids are the best

And my son turns 7 months on the 17th, Lol now thats funny.

 

[R3DMONSTER]

And my son turns 7 months on the 17th, Lol now thats funny.

lol now that's something lol best of luck to you taking care of everyone sounds like you have your hands full but you'll manage whenever everyone gets back to full health post something up on the temp gauge I'm dying to find out which wire I'm connecting to it, family first and then cars lol

 

[youngsmith53]

I'm back.........

And Josh I'm Sorry for thread jacking you, But this will only take a couple of post back and forth.

Hell, no worries what-so-ever, that's what this thread is for with getting as much knowledge out there for other NA owners to help out each other. Feel free to chime in...

As far as myself, family vacation was good, it was nice to get away from all the hub-bub of the holidays for a change and just relax in the nice weather of Florida. It was quite odd to go swimming on Thanksgiving day, (or even in November for that matter) but it was refreshing and much needed after a long stretch of work.

The wife's T&C worked marvelous down to FLA and back home. We did get the dreaded 4 lights (ESP/BAS, ABS, BRAKE, TRACTION CONTROL) that all came on at once... it's just a speed sensor when it gets cold. One nice day warmer day, I'll get her washed up and the code will more than likely reset itself. I haven't taken the OBDII checker out, but the more I have read about it, it's not major.

As far as Aya, I didn't get a chance to plug in my dedicated phone running the Torque app yesterday, so I do not have data from yesterday. (I know, I know, I'm slacking) But, I did get it charged up and I collected some more data this morning. This tank/fill-up I'm going to hyper-mile like I did back in the summer and get the MPG's back up as high as possible using more hyper-miling tricks of the trade as seen here: 100+ Hypermiling / ecodriving tips & tactics for better mpg - EcoModder.com (I always have this site up as one of my google chrome tabs)

But anyway, I filled up yesterday morning (33.7 avg MPG's) I gone back to doing the following:

• 99% of driving with auto-stick
• engine breaking
• using the break as little as possible
• accelerating uphill
• coasting downhill
• maintaining hwy speeds 2 MPH over (ie: listed 55 mph / cruise set @ 57 mph)

I'm really excited to see the difference in the charts with the above changes in driving habits, I have already done this before and saw changes, but nothing with hard data to back it up. With the weather getting colder I want to make sure I can keep a higher average of MPG's without having to go to the way of a grill block or something of that sorts. I have been following @starscream5000 and how he fab'd his up. Might be nice little project to keep me out of trouble and into the garage during the colder months.

As always thanks for reading, if you have any questions feel free to ask... stay tuned.

 

[youngsmith53]

1 of 1,621

As seen on the other thread: http://www.dodge-dart.org/forum/dodge-dart-org-polls/4962-color-do-you-like-best-6.html#post352965 I figured I'd post this on the Aya's build thread since it is a pretty cool deal. I email'd/contacted CCAC after reading that @Laguna Blue was able to get some information on how many Laguna Blue's were manufactured in 2013. We'll Chrysler contacted me and here's what we got:

"Dear Joshua:

Thank you for contacting the Chrysler Customer Assistance Center.

We are pleased to provide vehicle build information per your request.

According to our records, there were 1,621 Dodge Dart units built in Citrus Peel Pearl Coat paint for the 2013 model year.

Thanks again for your email.

Sincerely,

Tony

Customer Service Representative
Chrysler Customer Assistance Center"

So, Aya is 1 of 1,621... let's put that into some perspective as @Laguna Blue was able to find out that there was only 1,057 Laguna Blue made... so Laguna is rarer than Citrus as far as our Dart's go. Let's take a look at some other numbers we can check out:

Dodge Charger Daytona edition production numbers via Wikipedia
Year - Color / Units
2006 - Go ManGo! / 4000 (US) & 200 (CDN)
2006 - Top Banana / 4000 (US) & 250 (CDN)
2006 - TorRed / 2000 (US) & 200 (CDN)
2007 - Sublime / 1500 (US) & 150 (CDN)
2007 - Plum Crazy / 1400 (USA) & 120 (CDN)
2008 - Hemi Orange / 1650 (US) & 100 (CDN)
2009 - Stone White / 400 (US) & 75 (CDN)

So just to put it into some perspective how rare the Citrus Peel and Laguna Blue are, there are less of those two colors than the special edition Charger Daytona editions they came out during the re-introduction (other than the gorgeous Stone White, Sublime & Plum Crazy). Pretty sweet if you ask me... Long live high impact colors!

 

[Bkord123]

Hey Joshua. Regarding your trans temps...does anything on the EVIC show that like the coolant temp gauge? Have any of those numbers dropped?

 

[youngsmith53]

Hey Joshua. Regarding your trans temps...does anything on the EVIC show that like the coolant temp gauge? Have any of those numbers dropped?

I'll put a reminder in my phone to take a pic and upload it tonight when I park her after my evening commute. I don't have the TFT display, (just the normal gauges) but the temp needle has been farther below the midway point that it has been in the past. I'll get a good pic to show y'all

 

[youngsmith53]

Just because...

I am really diving into some more aspects of data collection than I thought I would be. But, I like to know what is going on and I am intrigued with the 2.0 engine and how Aya runs. So, I took it upon myself after reading months of posts on Used Oil Analysis - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy and love to see the differences in the oils and filters out there.

Well, I finally took the bait today and went to Blackstone Labs and ordered myself a free test kit. The kit itself is free, sample cost is $25.00 per analysis. It will be good to find out how it all is going with the oil and additives and what not.

Anyway, I am excited to see this and get the feedback from them to see how the oil is deteriorating or reacting through out it's engine life and how it is working/not-working. I have only put Mobil 1 0w-20 AFE in Aya, so I am interested to see how that holds up in comparisons to others. Other than that, I'll stop babbling and provide you all with some links & examples, enjoy.

Here are some links to help see what I am talking about:
Used Oil Analysis - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy
Used Oil Analysis: How to decide what is normal - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy
Analyze This Part II : New Blackstone Used Oil Analysis Reports Have Arrived

Example of UOA (credit: Blackstone Oil Report 10k miles on Mobil 1 0w-20 - Club Lexus Forums )

Another Example of UOA (credit: Analyze This Part II : New Blackstone Used Oil Analysis Reports Have Arrived )

 

[starscream5000]

I've used Blackstone Labs before on my other cars, money well spent

 

[youngsmith53]

***Aya an I were in an accident this morning***

Not really going to go through a lot of details or post any pics until State Farm has gather all pertinent information. (Sorry, I don't air dirty laundry out on the web until all parties have been contacted, it's not how I roll.) Just know that Aya is drivable and there was no injuries. I will go into more details, pics, etcetera as I can provide once the claim team contacts me later on in the day.

 

[motoelliot]

***Aya an I were in an accident this morning***

Not really going to go through a lot of details or post any pics until State Farm has gather all pertinent information. (Sorry, I don't air dirty laundry out on the web until all parties have been contacted, it's not how I roll.) Just know that Aya is drivable and there was no injuries. I will go into more details, pics, etcetera as I can provide once the claim team contacts me later on in the day.

Sorry to hear that, glad everyone is ok.