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What I dont get is your comment about significance between FCA, GM and Ford... What are GM and Ford doing that are so great right now? I can tell you that GM is working on majority performance cars right now as well as Ford... Just look at the new Camaro and the mid-engine corvette! As well as the Focus RS... Youre gonna tell me that people wouldnt want to see a 2.4HOT Dart AWD be able to EAT a Focus RS??? Cause ill tell you right now, for the money you pay for an RS you could go buy and AWD Challenger and be just as fast.

Idk why you are so against the Dart and where it could have been it Dodge had re-vamped it and built an SRT or R/T model, but all of a sudden it seems like you arent really a fan anymore.
Let me be clear: I love my Dart! If I stop to think about it, I really can't imagine what I would replace it with. I guess either a Focus ST or a Mustang, because FCA sells nothing that I want to drive, and I have zero brand loyalty anyway. But I'd rather not have to, because, as I say, I love driving my Dart every single day.

What I'm not a fan of is living in a fantasy world. I have been very consistent that I didn't think an SRT Dart was ever going to happen and that the "insiders" we had here were spreading "polite fictions" when they said otherwise. FCA never had any intention of following through on any of their "5 year plans", the purpose of which is to get investors all hot and bothered, not to provide an accurate vision of the future. My view, which I stated many times, was that I would not believe in the existence of a Dart SRT until it was possible for me to walk into a dealership and buy one. Furthermore, I've always been of the opinion that when it comes to small cars, extreme performance models are the result of a successful model, not the cause. Those performance models that succeed generally come after the model has successfully established itself. Look at the Caliber to see what happens when you introduce a high performance model of a car that isn't very successful. It was obvious by 2014 that the Dart was not very successful by FCA's standards.

I don't believe the schedule "refresh" of the Dart would have resulted in significant changes for the better, either. Likely the 1.4T and 2.0L models would have been dropped from the lineup entirely, and all Darts would have used the 2.4L Tigershark. It's not like there are any other engines for them to use, after all. They probably would have also made the 9-speed automatic the only transmission available except in the absolute base model, which has become industry standard for compact cars. Other than that, the only other obvious major changes would probably have been the use of the Uconnect 8.4A and the new Dodge steering wheel. Maybe some exterior styling changes to add LED accent lights all over the place and a racetrack light like the Durango's, because that's the thing to do now. I don't know what people expected for the "refresh", but they probably weren't going to redesign the car from scratch, so complaints like harsh suspension and the Dart's weight would likely not have been addressed, at least not very significantly.

An AWD Challenger GT is actually a fair bit cheaper than a Focus RS, but then again it's also less powerful, since it's only available with a 3.6L Pentastar V6 that makes 305hp (and only with the automatic transmission). It's not exactly intended for the performance enthusiast and since there is basically no aftermarket support for the 3.6L Pentastar, it will almost certainly never be faster than the much lighter 350hp Focus RS, unless you're comparing them coasting downhill in neutral. You need to get into the 392 Hemi V8 Challengers to outrun an RS, and even then, the Challenger will only be faster in a straight line. Of course, these are different types of cars that don't really compete for sales in the market, so comparing them is kind of silly.

There's no guarantee a Dart SRT would have been faster than the Focus RS. Unless there's another engine I haven't heard of, it almost certainly was intended to use the same all-new 2.0T engine that is found in the Alfa Romeo Giulia. In that application, it makes 280hp using premium fuel, and oh yeah, it uses MultiAir2, which apparently disqualifies it from being a performance engine. I'm sure SRT could get more out of the engine and make a very fast AWD Dart SRT, but how much were people willing to actually pay for a Dart SRT? The Neon SRT4 was somewhat unique in being a remarkably affordable high-performance compact sedan, but that's just not the kind of car that SRT builds in 2017. I expect the Dart SRT would have been priced at least in the same ballpark as the Focus RS, which starts at USD $36K / CAD $48.5K (the Canadian version only comes "fully-loaded" and has no options, which is the same as what Ford did with the Canadian Focus ST). Sure, there might have been some people holding out for the Dart SRT that moved on when it didn't happen, but there aren't that many people in the market for a compact car in that price range.

The Neon SRT was considered very successful and sold something like 25K units over 3 years. That number of cars is completely insignificant when you're talking about compact car sales. Toyota typically sells more than 25K Corollas in a month, because much as it pains me to say it, that's the kind of compact sedan that the average North American car buyer really wants. The Corolla is one of the most successful cars of all time, and it's also one of the most boring and least performance-oriented compact cars you could possibly buy. The equally successful Civic is only slightly less lame, and while Honda offers performance models, they are inconsequential to the Civic's real success as a compact car.

I don't know what we're arguing about, really. Ultimately the 2013-2016 Dart will go down as a commercial failure, a barely remembered footnote in automotive history. Whether it could have been successful can only ever be speculation at this point. Breaking into the compact car market with a brand new model in 2013 was always going to be very challenging for Dodge, who already had a track record of failure in this segment when the Dart was introduced. I do agree that they probably could have done more to improve the likelihood of success, but the cold, hard truth is that they didn't and what we have now is all we're ever going to have as far as the Dart is concerned.
 

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I love my Dart!
In 30 years, we will be chatting with friends or family and saying ....."I used to have this awesome car made by Dodge that was a blast to drive." I know I will.

I have my old license plate, car keys, and a chunk of the melted aluminum impact bumper from my Dart that roasted on fire. I plan on hanging it up on the wall inside my new garage this summer, probably make a wooden plaque with a glass overlay.
 

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why is thread with a very misleading title still open?
Because this forum is dead and I tried to bring back discussion on what could have been? Change the title fine but theres no reason to close this thread considering the amount of discussion it spurned changing the cycle of only one or two threads that are actually active anymore....
 

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Would have sold more than the demon imo and probably be less costly to produce.

And who knows how popular the dart could have become after a refresh. As we all know dodge didnt even TRY to fix people's negative opinion on the dart. Maybe if Dodge actually wanted the dart the community would have as well...
You can't compare those two. Yo need to compare it to what is going into the factory that used to produce the dart/200. Hint, the vehicle going into that factory is making way more money now before it even gets moved into it and it will make more after.

I know everyone thinks the dart is the greatest car ever built but it's not. It's good but it doesn't do great at any one thing. It's just good at things here and there. The reason why the srt never came out was because srt makes sure they can put the very best thing out there and they couldn't hit their numbers. Would have been bad ass? Yes but there's already performance cars out there in it's price range that people jump to first (gti/r, st/rs, wrx/sti) All those companies have very loyal followings
 

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You can't compare those two. Yo need to compare it to what is going into the factory that used to produce the dart/200. Hint, the vehicle going into that factory is making way more money now before it even gets moved into it and it will make more after.

I know everyone thinks the dart is the greatest car ever built but it's not. It's good but it doesn't do great at any one thing. It's just good at things here and there. The reason why the srt never came out was because srt makes sure they can put the very best thing out there and they couldn't hit their numbers. Would have been bad ass? Yes but there's already performance cars out there in it's price range that people jump to first (gti/r, st/rs, wrx/sti) All those companies have very loyal followings
It was a first model iteration of a car of course it was going to have problems, but to not even ATTEMPT a refresh to try and break into these markets that you speak of I think is shortsighted. All these cars with loyal followings have had several models and upgrades to keep up with the times and build brand loyalty. Dodge didnt even try to change peoples opinion or show that the problems it had at launch were being fixed.

Oh and thinking that the car wasnt given a fair chance and wishing it would have been continued doesnt mean I think its the "greatest car in the world"
 

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It was a first model iteration of a car of course it was going to have problems, but to not even ATTEMPT a refresh to try and break into these markets that you speak of I think is shortsighted. All these cars with loyal followings have had several models and upgrades to keep up with the times and build brand loyalty. Dodge didnt even try to change peoples opinion or show that the problems it had at launch were being fixed.

Oh and thinking that the car wasnt given a fair chance and wishing it would have been continued doesnt mean I think its the "greatest car in the world"
"greatest car in the world" was posited at you but everyone on this forum that thinks it is. Please explain to me where the dart/200 should be built then if it was to still be around.
 

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You can't compare those two. Yo need to compare it to what is going into the factory that used to produce the dart/200. Hint, the vehicle going into that factory is making way more money now before it even gets moved into it and it will make more after.

I know everyone thinks the dart is the greatest car ever built but it's not. It's good but it doesn't do great at any one thing. It's just good at things here and there. The reason why the srt never came out was because srt makes sure they can put the very best thing out there and they couldn't hit their numbers. Would have been bad ass? Yes but there's already performance cars out there in it's price range that people jump to first (gti/r, st/rs, wrx/sti) All those companies have very loyal followings
Maybe, all those companies have loyal followers on those models...because they actually still build them. I am a "loyal follower" of Dodge, which is why personally I was holding out for the SRT Dart that they kept teasing.


"greatest car in the world" was posited at you but everyone on this forum that thinks it is. Please explain to me where the dart/200 should be built then if it was to still be around.
IDK about the where they should be built, but I will tell you the reason I think they should be built. Those loyal followers you mentioned, they don't just materialize out of no where. Where are you going to build your loyal following without an entry level car to introduce people to the brand. Let's face it most new drivers are not given Hellcats, or SRT performance cars. If you are a new driver lucky enough for a new car, it is an entry lever car like the Dart. There are also a lot of people that just don't want to drive full size cars (like me). Without a car in that segment Dodge is going to lose following. Also, the Charger and Challenger are selling like hot-cakes now, but what happens when they aren't any more. If/when gas goes back up to $5.00, what do you suppose is going to happen to Dodge's new vehicle sales. You ask me, FCA is short-sighting Dodge right now, and my fear is eventually it is going to bite Dodge in the @ss!
 

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They should be built exactly where they were being built. There is no need to bring back the Wagoneer and move Dodge Ram production to SHAP. It's going to be a worse failure than the Dodge Aspen. Competing with luxury brand SUV's, come on that ain't gonna happen just like the Alfa Guilia isn't going to sell competing with BMW.

To be spending 1.5 billion on each factory to re-tool seems like a horrible idea to do every 4 years when your net profit for one year is under 2 billion.

People have been screaming for decades for a Jeep pickup truck. "Here's your Wagoneer guys, do you like it?" - Sergio
 

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They should be built exactly where they were being built. There is no need to bring back the Wagoneer and move Dodge Ram production to SHAP. It's going to be a worse failure than the Dodge Aspen. Competing with luxury brand SUV's, come on that ain't gonna happen just like the Alfa Guilia isn't going to sell competing with BMW.

To be spending 1.5 billion on each factory to re-tool seems like a horrible idea to do every 4 years when your net profit for one year is under 2 billion.

People have been screaming for decades for a Jeep pickup truck. "Here's your Wagoneer guys, do you like it?" - Sergio
The jeep pickup is coming back along with the wagoneer. Any vehicle in fca lineup for norther america other then the fiat side makes cash. The dart and 200 were both bleeding it
 

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Maybe, all those companies have loyal followers on those models...because they actually still build them. I am a "loyal follower" of Dodge, which is why personally I was holding out for the SRT Dart that they kept teasing.




IDK about the where they should be built, but I will tell you the reason I think they should be built. Those loyal followers you mentioned, they don't just materialize out of no where. Where are you going to build your loyal following without an entry level car to introduce people to the brand. Let's face it most new drivers are not given Hellcats, or SRT performance cars. If you are a new driver lucky enough for a new car, it is an entry lever car like the Dart. There are also a lot of people that just don't want to drive full size cars (like me). Without a car in that segment Dodge is going to lose following. Also, the Charger and Challenger are selling like hot-cakes now, but what happens when they aren't any more. If/when gas goes back up to $5.00, what do you suppose is going to happen to Dodge's new vehicle sales. You ask me, FCA is short-sighting Dodge right now, and my fear is eventually it is going to bite Dodge in the @ss!
I'm just like you and follow dodge. I will follow dodge to the depths of hell and they can team up with anyone but ford/gm. Both cars were rushed to the market. When they bring back smaller cars again they need to take their time. From the get go both of them left a sour taste in peoples mouths because of teh issues. You need to get the magazine to like the cars first as that's where people get the idea the car is good. The last good car dodge built was over 10 years ago, it was the neon. It did everything you wanted it do do. Since then their small cars have been pretty shit. It doesn't matter how many small cars they end up selling if they all fall apart in 5 years and won't get those customers as return customers
 

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They should be built exactly where they were being built. There is no need to bring back the Wagoneer and move Dodge Ram production to SHAP. It's going to be a worse failure than the Dodge Aspen. Competing with luxury brand SUV's, come on that ain't gonna happen just like the Alfa Guilia isn't going to sell competing with BMW.

To be spending 1.5 billion on each factory to re-tool seems like a horrible idea to do every 4 years when your net profit for one year is under 2 billion.

People have been screaming for decades for a Jeep pickup truck. "Here's your Wagoneer guys, do you like it?" - Sergio
Not to mention, the Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer are expected to be high-end luxury vehicles with a price tag to match. FCA North America is not doing well in the sales charts. Their YTD sales are down 10% over the first 2 months of 2016. You might think "oh well, with no Dart/200, that makes sense", except that Jeep is down even more than FCA as a whole. The Cherokee, which should be leading the charge in the sales charts (due to its class and price point), is in fact in free-fall. There are several SUVs selling like crazy in North America. They're all made by FCA's competitors. I think FCA made a bad assumption. They assumed that "iconic" would translate to "popular". Everybody knows what a Jeep is, but that doesn't mean they want to own one.

Then there's RAM, which is frankly the only thing keeping FCA North America in business at this point. They're actually up 4.5% YTD compared to 2016. That's good news, right? Well, it's better than being down, sure, but that number needs some context. The Chevy Silverado family saw 6.2% growth in the first 2 months. And Ford's F-series saw 10.4% growth. Ford and Chevy already outsold RAM pretty significantly, so each percent of growth translates to significantly more actual units sold for them than for RAM. Not only is RAM still in 3rd place of the 3 pickup truck families, but it is, in reality, losing ground to Ford and Chevy in the pickup truck segment.

But hey, great news, guys! Alfa Romeo saw 379% growth! Of course, that's a jump from 115 units YTD 2016 to 551 YTD 2017 and after the introduction of a second model, but hey, it's something, right? RIGHT?
 

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Not to mention, the Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer are expected to be high-end luxury vehicles with a price tag to match. FCA North America is not doing well in the sales charts. Their YTD sales are down 10% over the first 2 months of 2016. You might think "oh well, with no Dart/200, that makes sense", except that Jeep is down even more than FCA as a whole. The Cherokee, which should be leading the charge in the sales charts (due to its class and price point), is in fact in free-fall. There are several SUVs selling like crazy in North America. They're all made by FCA's competitors. I think FCA made a bad assumption. They assumed that "iconic" would translate to "popular". Everybody knows what a Jeep is, but that doesn't mean they want to own one.

Then there's RAM, which is frankly the only thing keeping FCA North America in business at this point. They're actually up 4.5% YTD compared to 2016. That's good news, right? Well, it's better than being down, sure, but that number needs some context. The Chevy Silverado family saw 6.2% growth in the first 2 months. And Ford's F-series saw 10.4% growth. Ford and Chevy already outsold RAM pretty significantly, so each percent of growth translates to significantly more actual units sold for them than for RAM. Not only is RAM still in 3rd place of the 3 pickup truck families, but it is, in reality, losing ground to Ford and Chevy in the pickup truck segment.

But hey, great news, guys! Alfa Romeo saw 379% growth! Of course, that's a jump from 115 units YTD 2016 to 551 YTD 2017 and after the introduction of a second model, but hey, it's something, right? RIGHT?
As a whole everyone is down but jeep still sells the most vehicles for fca while being the most consistent followed by dodge being 20k units behind then ram being 1k behind dodge. Jeep si also down because they have two models that have been killed off too along with dodge/chrysler. Everyone knows jeeps major sales of the year are during the summer, way easier to sell teh wrangler then


Ona side note if fca is to team with vw you'll get your small cars a lot sooner with better reliability
 

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I'm just like you and follow dodge. I will follow dodge to the depths of hell and they can team up with anyone but ford/gm. Both cars were rushed to the market. When they bring back smaller cars again they need to take their time. From the get go both of them left a sour taste in peoples mouths because of teh issues. You need to get the magazine to like the cars first as that's where people get the idea the car is good. The last good car dodge built was over 10 years ago, it was the neon. It did everything you wanted it do do. Since then their small cars have been pretty shit. It doesn't matter how many small cars they end up selling if they all fall apart in 5 years and won't get those customers as return customers
I agree with you, and I loved the Neon...but I don't think many people would call that the a good car, let alone "the last good car Dodge made". LoL!

As a whole everyone is down but jeep still sells the most vehicles for fca while being the most consistent followed by dodge being 20k units behind then ram being 1k behind dodge. Jeep si also down because they have two models that have been killed off too along with dodge/chrysler. Everyone knows jeeps major sales of the year are during the summer, way easier to sell teh wrangler then


Ona side note if fca is to team with vw you'll get your small cars a lot sooner with better reliability
I've heard those rumors, and as nice and necessary as I think it is for Dodge to have a small car...I can't decide if that would be good or bad. LoL! BUt I guess it would be something.
 

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I agree with you, and I loved the Neon...but I don't think many people would call that the a good car, let alone "the last good car Dodge made". LoL!



I've heard those rumors, and as nice and necessary as I think it is for Dodge to have a small car...I can't decide if that would be good or bad. LoL! BUt I guess it would be something.
Good car for what it was. It literally ticked all teh boxes it needed to for a economy car of it's time, then srt beefed it up to make a crazy economy car.

Vw would be good because they make great 4 bangers and their reliably is already better then fca, plus we might get a sexy hatchback if that were to happen
 

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should have built Dart, 200 and Cherokee in the same plants, so capacity could be shifted around more; might have saved the cars.

had a dart 1.4T and still think that it was the most characterful mainstream small car I've ever had (have had 3 Mazda3, Hondas, etc.)...

the 200S, also, better (more engaging) than a lot of people give it credit for...
 

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should have built Dart, 200 and Cherokee in the same plants, so capacity could be shifted around more; might have saved the cars.
Cherokee would have ate up all the time for building then. The cherokee out sold the dart and 200 combined. Also teh reason they both got dropped was because they didn't make much money and had tons of issues when they first came out, thus giving them a bad rep
 
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