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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a 2013 dart sxt, not the turbo. it won't start all of a sudden, I have just replaced the alternator with one from a dealership before the current issue started. All the lights work perfectly fine, at full power as well. The battery and engine light are also on. It won't crank, there's no clicking when I try to start the car. Ive checked all the fuses and replaced the ones that I think could possibly have been a problem. Fuse F01 was blown but like I said I replaced it and still nothing . We had the battery tested and it read good. I think its the starter, but I've also read a few places it could be the relays for the starter and also read that if the battery isn't good enough even though its reading "good" it still might not start. I really need help, im a college student and don't want to have spend all the money associated with towing it and what not if im not sure what the problem is. Any and all help is appreciated , thank you in advance!
 

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t does not cost anything to swap same type relays in the PDC (underhood fuse box). You can also try jumping with jumper cables to a running car. Just make sure to run positive to positive and negative to negative.
Is the F01 fuse you mentioned, the one on the positive battery terminal? That is a 70 amp fuse that should not blow for no reason. Are you running aftermarket stuff? If so, disconnect it.
The PDC:
125411
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
We've tried jumping it, and nothing. Yes it is the BCM1 fuse and no there's not any aftermarket stuff on the car to my knowledge except maybe the fuses now.
 

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Fuses don't blow randomly. You have a short somewhere. Does the 70 amp fuse keep blowing? The BCM is very much a part of the the starting system.

So, it's F01 in the PDC?
125417


29 - Non-DTC Diagnostics / Starting / Diagnosis and Testing

NO CRANK (BCM EQUIPPED)

125416


Theory of Operation

This vehicle may come equipped with one of two types of ignitions, the IGNM (IGnition Node Module) or a KIN (Keyless Ignition Node). The KIN uses a Keyless Go Start/Stop push button for cycling the ignition on/off. The IGNM does not use a Keyless Go Start/Stop push button, instead providing a visible slot for the FOBIK to fit into for cycling the ignition on/off.

When the operator presses the Start/Stop Button on a KIN or cycles the FOBIK in a IGNM type ignition, the FOBIK is validated wirelessly by the RF Hub (Radio Frequency Hub Module). If the FOBIK is recognized as belonging to the vehicle and is inside the vehicle, the system allows the ignition state of the vehicle to be changed by the operator between the LOCK, ACCESSORY, RUN, and START ignition states.

LED Operation

The LEDs in the IGNM and Start/Stop Button provide visual indication of the ignition system and button use to aid the driver. The Logic for LED control is implemented in the IGNM and RF HUB. The IGNM and Start/Stop Button contain four LEDs:

•OFF Indication
•ACC Indication (Accessory)
•ON Indication (On or Run)
•Ignition Switch Indicator (button backlight)

The LEDs indicate the vehicle ignition position and are driven by the CAN bus signals related to the ignition position. The Center LED (Ignition Switch Indicator) will blink if there is a related concern.

The RF HUB will log a DTC indicating an incorrect Ignition status value is present; in this state the ignition status is unknown. This will continue until the correct signal is received by the RF Hub.

EVIC Operation

The Keyless Go feature requires the vehicle to be equipped with an EVIC display for prompts and status information. The display messages are:

•Service Keyless System
•FOB Not Detected
•FOB Left Vehicle
•Not in Park
•Push Brake Pedal and Push Button to Start
•Push Clutch Pedal and Push Button to Start
•Vehicle not in Park Warning

BCM/RF Hub Module Interaction

There are a few things that must take place before the starter relay can apply voltage to the starter. Below are some key points to check when diagnosing a no crank condition.

The BCM requires two signals from the RF HUB to verify the ignition is in the run or start position. The voltage on the F20 circuit is one of these signals. It can be monitored in both the RF HUB and BCM data display screens as the Ignition Run/Start under the “Sensor” value. The run or start position voltage on this circuit should be at or close to battery voltage.

Simultaneously the RF HUB busses the Ignition Run/Start status to the BCM. The BCM monitors the bussed input information as the secondary verification on the Ignition Run/Start status. The bussed messages can be monitored with the scan tool in both the RF HUB and BCM data display screens.

The F20 circuit voltage and the bussed ignition run/start status message received by the BCM must agree to enable starting. Once the vehicle is started, the loss of only one ignition signal will not cause the vehicle to cycle off as long as the other feed still indicates a "run status".

The RF HUB also requires an input from the Gated park switch (hardwired) and the OK to start CAN Bus message from the TCM (Crank Enable).

Diagnostic Aids

NOTE: The No Crank Diagnostic serves as an aid in diagnosing the concern and is intended to be used as a general guide, since each no crank condition can be unique.

The No Crank Diagnostic Test assumes all of the following to be true:

•Communication to all configured modules in the vehicle is possible with the scan tool.
•The condition is currently present.
•The TCM, PCM, RF HUB, and BCM are at the latest calibration (part number) levels.
•There are no active DTCs.
•There are no applicable Recalls.
•There are no applicable TSBs.
•There are no PCM inhibits (i.e. RPM, Trans Range, Clutch).
•The FOBIKs complete function and operation is correct.
•All battery cables and connections are clean and tight.
•There are no open fuses.
•The battery is fully charged and can pass a load test from the GR8 tester.
•The engine rotates freely.
•Any aftermarket equipment/wiring that has been installed is operating correctly.

Starter Relay Operation

In a no crank condition the Starter Relay can be missing power at pin 85, feed at pin 30, controlled ground at pin 86 or output at pin 87. Further explanation of how a relay operates is listed below:

•Pin 85 receives power from the BCM once the parameters for the Ignition Switch position and status, and all inhibit monitors (i.e. clutch switch, RPM, etc.) are satisfied.
•Pin 30 is a constant B+ feed.
•Pin 86 is a controlled ground by a module (i.e. PCM or BCM). Once power is sent from the BCM to the pin 85 of the relay it passes through a coil and leaves the relay through pin 86 to the control module.
•Pin 87 is an output circuit to the Starter solenoid. Once the circuit on pin 86 is grounded by the control module, the coil winding in the relay magnetically pulls the internal switch closed. When the internal switch is closed the power at pin 30 is sent to pin 87 of the relay.

Diagnostic Test


1. STARTER RELAY CHECK

1. When attempting to start the vehicle, listen and if needed feel for a click at the starter relay in the PDC.

NOTE:
Some starter relays are internal to a module and may not be accessible, making it more difficult to hear, or feel the clicking response. It is possible for a poor ground or the Trans Range Sensor position to be lost causing the starter to click once.

Did you hear an audible click at the relay or starter?

Yes

•Go To 9

No

•Go To 2


2. STARTER RELAY INPUT CHECK

1. Use a 12 volt test light/DVOM to check for power at pin 85 of the starter relay.

Is there Power/12 volts at pin 85?

Yes

•Go To 8

No

•Go To 3


3. RF HUB OPERATION

1. Using the scan tool, confirm the ignition switch status changes in the RF HUB under the data display screen for the “Sensor” values.

Does the ignition switch status on the data screen match the physical position of the KIN/IGNM?

Yes

•Go To 5

No

•Go To 4


4. REMOTE START ANTENNA

NOTE:
If the vehicle is not equipped with Remote Start, proceed to the next test step.

1. Cycle the ignition off.

2. Disconnect the Remote Start Antenna from the RF HUB.

3. Using one FOBIK and sitting in the driver’s seat, attempt to start the vehicle.

Did the vehicle start?

Yes

•Replace the Remote Start Antenna in accordance with the Service Information.
•Perform the BODY VERIFICATION TEST.

No

•Go To 5


5. BCM IGNITION STATUS

1. Using the scan tool, confirm the ignition switch status changes in the BCM under the data display screen for the “Bussed Input” and “Sensor” values.

NOTE:
The change of status in the BCM for the “Sensor” value validates the voltage activity (with very low amperage) of the F20 circuit.

In the BCM, do both values for the ignition switch status match; and do they match those in the RF HUB?

Yes

•Go To 6

No

•If the status of the Ignition Switch position is not changing under the “Sensor” value, check the F20 circuit at the BCM for battery voltage with a DVOM (not a test light).
•If there is Battery voltageat the BCM on the F20 circuit verify all power, ground and bus circuits are ok for the BCM. If no problem found replace the BCM in accordance with Service Information. (Refer to 08 - Electrical/8E - Electronic Control Modules/MODULE, Body Control/Removal) .
•If there is NO Battery voltageat the BCM on the F20 circuit, then check for voltage on the F20 circuit at the RF HUB.
•If there is Battery voltagecoming out of the RF HUB on the F20 circuit, check the F20 circuit between the RF HUB and BCM for a short, open condition or high resistance.
•If there is NO Battery voltagecoming out of the RF HUB on the F20 circuit verify all power, ground & communication circuits, & connections to the RF HUB prior to replacing. (Refer to 08 - Electrical/8E - Electronic Control Modules/MODULE, Radio Frequency (RF Hub) /Removal).
•In the data screen, if the status of the Ignition Switch was not changing under the “Bussed Input” value, further diagnosis is needed between the RF HUB, (bus circuits, connections) and the BCM.


6. PCM IGNITION, TRANS RANGE/CLUTCH SWITCH STATUS VERIFICATION

1. Using the scan tool confirm there are no inhibits that have been triggered in the PCM (i.e. Ignition Switch, Trans Range or Clutch Switch) and any switch inputs (filtered states) relating to the starting system function and operate correctly under the data display screen.

Does the PCM show any inhibits (not DTCs) for starting (not remote starting)?

Yes

•Correct the inhibit reason listed.
•If no problem can be found, then verify all power, ground and bus circuits to the PCM and replace the PCM in accordance with the Service Information. (Refer to 08 - Electrical/8E - Electronic Control Modules/MODULE, Powertrain Control/Removal) .

No

•Go To 7


7. BCM TO STARTER RELAY POWER INPUT CHECK

1. At this time if all the correct inputs for the ignition switch status are correct in the RF HUB, BCM and PCM, verify both power feeds are present (pin 30 and 85) to the Starter Relay while in the crank position.

Are both power feeds present at the relay when the ignition is in the crank position?

Yes

•Go To 8

No

•If, there is no power to pin 30 or 85, no DTCs, TSBs, Recalls, or Inhibits replace the BCM in accordance with Service Information. (Refer to 08 - Electrical/8E - Electronic Control Modules/MODULE, Body Control/Removal) .


8. STARTER RELAY CONTROL CIRCUIT CHECK

1. Using a test light/DVOM determine if the Starter Control circuit at pin 86 of the relay is missing ground (at the relay if equipped with a removable relay or wiring to the internal relay) when the ignition is in the crank position.

Was the Starter Control circuit for pin 86 being grounded when the ignition was in the crank position?

Yes

•Go To 10

No

•Verify the Starter Relay Control circuit from pin 86, has no shorts, opens or high resistance on the wiring going from the Starter Relay in the BCM (or PDC) to the PCM.
•Verify the cables do not have excessive resistance by performing a voltage drop on the battery cables.


9. STARTER RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT CHECK

NOTE:
At this point in the test, when the key is in the crank position power has been verified at Pin 30 & 85, along with the control circuit being grounded for pin 86.

1. Remove the Starter Relay Output circuit connector from the Starter solenoid.

2. Using a test light/DVOM and ignition in the crank position check for power at pin 87 (If equipped with a removable relay or wiring to the internal relay) of the relay and at the connection to the starter.


Was there power at pin 87 for the output circuit?

Yes

•Go To 10

No

•If power is missing to pin 30 of the starter relay the BCM is suspect. Verify all power, ground, communication circuits and connections to the BCM before replacing in accordance with service information.
•If power is missing at pin 87 of the starter relay and the relay is replaceable, change out the relay and recheck the concern. If a known good relay causes no change, check the Starter Output circuit from pin 87 of the relay to the starter for an open, short, excessive resistance, or poor connections to the solenoid or starter.
•Verify and Inspect the Starter to ensure it is free of corrosion, oil, and there is no damage, or binding conditions.
•Verify that all wiring, cables and connections are clean and tight.


10. STARTER RELAY OUTPUT CIRCUIT LOAD TEST

1. Load test the Starter Relay output circuit going from the BCM to the Starter.


Does the starter relay output circuit pass the load test?

Yes

•Verify that all connections are clean, tight and there is no damage to starter when fully inspected. If no problem found then replace the Starter in accordance with Service Information.(Refer to 08 - Electrical/Starting/STARTER/Removal) .

No

•Adjust the shift cable in accordance with the Service Information. Perform the POWERTRAIN VERIFICATION TEST.
 

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The schematic from the PDC to the BCM:

125419
 

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Here is the schematic for the starter and the two starter relays.
125420
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Ended up being a faulty negative grown wire from the battery to the starter, thank you for all your help!
 
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