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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello all, I was starting this thread to find out if there is anyone else who has a 2015 dart with a 1.4T engine also has the MPx bored throttle body...

I bought one and installed it on Friday... Since then I have had a CEL P2173 "Throttle actuator control system: high air flow detected" along with a flashing tps light on my dashboard. All this topped with a higher idle... I do have alfaOBD, and did the tps relearn procedure.

I need to hear from anyone with a 2015 or newer 1.4t as the ECUs are different. I will also be talking to MPx directly to see if I may have gotten a faulty throttle body.

*UPDATE*

I spoke with MPx directly, and they are sending me a new bored throttle body on the off chance that the one I originally received was faulty. If the new one fixes my problem, then we know what the issue was... IF not, than I will be working a little more closely with MPx to figure out why the 15s ECU does not allow for more airflow into the intake manifold without throwing a CEL. It seems to me that dodge may have altered the parameters on the ECU to have the values more concise and within a certain margin which would be smaller than the 12-13 ECUs.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Any updates? I'm 2013 but looking at a throttle body as well
If you have a 2013 you will be fine. My 2015 would not cooperate with the throttle body correctly. Although, I did enjoy the bit of power it gave while I had it on!

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13 ECU's are MAP based, No Mass Air, so ECU does not pay attention to air Flow per say, just Pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
13 ECU's are MAP based, No Mass Air, so ECU does not pay attention to air Flow per say, just Pressure.
That's strange... Cause the CEL I was getting said throttle body: too much airflow. So maybe they changed it on the 15s...

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That's strange... Cause the CEL I was getting said throttle body: too much airflow. So maybe they changed it on the 15s...

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No, that makes sense, if they started monitoring MAF on 2014+ 1.4T ECUs, then a larger throttle body would allow a larger mass of air to flow through it, potentially triggering a CEL for too much airflow. Of course, since the throttle body is electronically-controlled and not directly linked by cable to your right foot, it's also possible that it is defective and opening incorrectly, especially since it is unlikely you would be the first person to have this problem.
 

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There is no MAF on any Dart. They all use MAP.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
There is no MAF on any Dart. They all use MAP.
That doesn't explain how the car was able to see the added airflow from the bored throttle body and trigger a CEL for too much airflow then.

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There is no MAF on any Dart. They all use MAP.
Very happy you posted this! I was shocked when @Exitus04 and others persisted that there Was a MAF sensor added to the Dart platform some years ago. Didn't make any sense to me, but they posted part #'s and such and even though I said that tuners couldn't work on both the 2013 and newer models if one was MAP based and 2014+ were MAF based, they insisted there was a MAF sensor added.

So Thank you @alpinegreenneon for finally straightening that up, and for verifying that whatever becomes of my little turbo project, it will work on all 1.4T Darts! :cool:
 

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Hello all, I was starting this thread to find out if there is anyone else who has a 2015 dart with a 1.4T engine also has the MPx bored throttle body...

I bought one and installed it on Friday... Since then I have had a CEL P2173 "Throttle actuator control system: high air flow detected" along with a flashing tps light on my dashboard. All this topped with a higher idle... I do have alfaOBD, and did the tps relearn procedure.

I need to hear from anyone with a 2015 or newer 1.4t as the ECUs are different. I will also be talking to MPx directly to see if I may have gotten a faulty throttle body.

*UPDATE*

I spoke with MPx directly, and they are sending me a new bored throttle body on the off chance that the one I originally received was faulty. If the new one fixes my problem, then we know what the issue was... IF not, than I will be working a little more closely with MPx to figure out why the 15s ECU does not allow for more airflow into the intake manifold without throwing a CEL. It seems to me that dodge may have altered the parameters on the ECU to have the values more concise and within a certain margin which would be smaller than the 12-13 ECUs.
Since we now know that the Dart only used MAP to monitor, I can now say that this is not an air Flow code as you are perceiving it to be.

The code you are seeing is basically telling you that you either have a massive Vacuum leak, Faulty sensors on your TB, and/or faulty MAP sensor or sensor wiring.

The Beauty of MAP based systems is that they Don't monitor air flow, just air Pressure. So you can Fool them with larger turbo's and larger inj's and they will just hum along not knowing anything has changed as long as the pressure it sees is acceptable ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Since we now know that the Dart only used MAP to monitor, I can now say that this is not an air Flow code as you are perceiving it to be.

The code you are seeing is basically telling you that you either have a massive Vacuum leak, Faulty sensors on your TB, and/or faulty MAP sensor or sensor wiring.

The Beauty of MAP based systems is that they Don't monitor air flow, just air Pressure. So you can Fool them with larger turbo's and larger inj's and they will just hum along not knowing anything has changed as long as the pressure it sees is acceptable ;)
I didn't say there was a maf sensor... but that's cool. I didn't literally install and swap out 3 different brand new bored throttle bodies and get the exact same problem every single time.

I did the testing and found that there is a difference between the 13s ECU and the 15s... Like I said before, I am guessing that they changed the parameters. I am not "perceiving" anything... I know the code I read and checked it with the dart FSM. (Please see the attached)

I don't know why it works the way it does, but there is obviously some difference between the 13 and 15 ECUs to cause this issue when swapping to a larger throttle body, and not that much larger at that.


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I didn't say there was a maf sensor... but that's cool. I didn't literally install and swap out 3 different brand new bored throttle bodies and get the exact same problem every single time.

I did the testing and found that there is a difference between the 13s ECU and the 15s... Like I said before, I am guessing that they changed the parameters. I am not "perceiving" anything... I know the code I read and checked it with the dart FSM. (Please see the attached)

I don't know why it works the way it does, but there is obviously some difference between the 13 and 15 ECUs to cause this issue when swapping to a larger throttle body, and not that much larger at that.


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Dude, you Really need to try and remember what you post. Your level of misinformation is astounding, and that's why I Remember Who posts What!


Direct quote from this thread, post 16....You! https://www.dodge-dart.org/forum/dodge-dart-1-4l-multiair-turbo/44913-throttle-body-2.html

"Now you are right to a certain extent here... cause the 2015 and newer models have both a MAP AND MAF sensors on them... I know that because I had issues with my MAF sensor when I built my intake... And I agree that @ 160hp and 185TQ that the 1.4T does make decent power... but that is all done by the multiair system... Which was designed with both economy and performance in mind. They state in their explanation video that the multiair system was designed to get the best HP & TQ ratings while using the smallest amount of fuel.

I know that since you are working on a 2013 it is a different story, but what I have found is that you really cant stray too far away from factory parameters with this car as it gets really upset and will throw CELs for pretty much everything it doesnt like. UNLESS you are running a tuner... but if that be the case then you WILL see gains from the ported TB because the tune will be (hopefully) written for it.

So its kinda a were both kinda right in different ways here... you are 100% right for the 2012-2014 models since they dont have MAF sensors... but the 2015+ have MAF sensors and can see that added airflow... And when it comes to the predetermined AFR, yes they will adjust themselves to make the AFR right again but if the CEL is on and the car goes into limp mode then it overrides the commanded AFR and just puts the car into a safe tune that cannot be altered. " Exitus04


So it was indeed You who told me that the 2015 Darts had MAF sensors, which I found hard to believe, but hey, I had no proof otherwise so I let it slide.

Just Glad it finally got straightened up and one less piece of misinformation out there! ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Dude, you Really need to try and remember what you post. Your level of misinformation is astounding, and that's why I Remember Who posts What!


Direct quote from this thread, post 16....You! https://www.dodge-dart.org/forum/dodge-dart-1-4l-multiair-turbo/44913-throttle-body-2.html

"Now you are right to a certain extent here... cause the 2015 and newer models have both a MAP AND MAF sensors on them... I know that because I had issues with my MAF sensor when I built my intake... And I agree that @ 160hp and 185TQ that the 1.4T does make decent power... but that is all done by the multiair system... Which was designed with both economy and performance in mind. They state in their explanation video that the multiair system was designed to get the best HP & TQ ratings while using the smallest amount of fuel.

I know that since you are working on a 2013 it is a different story, but what I have found is that you really cant stray too far away from factory parameters with this car as it gets really upset and will throw CELs for pretty much everything it doesnt like. UNLESS you are running a tuner... but if that be the case then you WILL see gains from the ported TB because the tune will be (hopefully) written for it.

So its kinda a were both kinda right in different ways here... you are 100% right for the 2012-2014 models since they dont have MAF sensors... but the 2015+ have MAF sensors and can see that added airflow... And when it comes to the predetermined AFR, yes they will adjust themselves to make the AFR right again but if the CEL is on and the car goes into limp mode then it overrides the commanded AFR and just puts the car into a safe tune that cannot be altered. " Exitus04


So it was indeed You who told me that the 2015 Darts had MAF sensors, which I found hard to believe, but hey, I had no proof otherwise so I let it slide.

Just Glad it finally got straightened up and one less piece of misinformation out there! ;)
There is a MAF sensor on my dart... and ill show you.

If you see the picture below you should look at the red circle and it shows (on my engine) a new sensor that is connected to the hose from the PCV to the intake. That sensor is NOT present on any 2013 dart engine.
sensor.jpg

If @alpinegreenneon wants to try and look up what that sensor is via the FSM then he can let you know what it is.

As for not remembering what I posted from almost a year ago... my bad, I forgot... but yes we all remember what everyone else posts I guess what we find ourselves skeptical about what they are saying. Speaking of, hows that 300+hp big turbo build coming? or did you give up on it? There is a post here that shows you sold your dart to someone else here?
 

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If @alpinegreenneon wants to try and look up what that sensor is via the FSM then he can let you know what it is.
That looks more like some kind of evap component. A MAF would be located somewhere in the air intake before the throttle body. @Exitus04 can you see a part number on that component or can you tell us the wire colors? I cropped and enlarged your pic of the component to see more detail but this is still not enough:

dartmysterysensor.jpg

Here is a schematic from TechAuthority.com of the 1.4 intake air. I see no MAF sensor.

intakeair14schematic.jpg

For comparison of wire colors, here is the evap schematic.

evapsystem14schematic.jpg

And last but not least, the PCM pinout. If there is a MAF I do not see it.

C-1
PCM-14-C1b.jpg
PCM-14-C1c.jpg


C-2
PCM-14-C2b.jpg
PCM-14-C2c.jpg
 

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I dont know what that is but MAF sensors are usually the size of your intake ducting and just where alpine stated...between the airbox and the TB.

Here is a picture of one i just orderd:
8610055-TOP__ra_p.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #17
That looks more like some kind of evap component. A MAF would be located somewhere in the air intake before the throttle body. @Exitus04 can you see a part number on that component or can you tell us the wire colors? I cropped and enlarged your pic of the component to see more detail but this is still not enough:

View attachment 116478

Here is a schematic from TechAuthority.com of the 1.4 intake air. I see no MAF sensor.

View attachment 116480

For comparison of wire colors, here is the evap schematic.

View attachment 116482

And last but not least, the PCM pinout. If there is a MAF I do not see it.

C-1
View attachment 116484
View attachment 116486


C-2
View attachment 116488
View attachment 116490
I will do what i can about getting a closer picture to see if there is a part# on there or see the colored wires... All I know is when I disconnected that sensor it threw CEL P04DB something about the airflow for the crankcase vent system... I dont remember exactly. But even still... IF the 15s don't have a MAF sensor, that still doesnt explain how the bored throttle body caused the CEL P2173... there would have to be some sort of airflow sensor to read the added +7% airflow that the bored throttle body allows. That being said maybe the throttle bodies have a sensor in them as well?

The only other thing I could think of is that when speaking with Modern they did tell me that certain times they had issues with their bored throttle bodies flapper getting stuck when the car hit operating temp. But after testing 3 different BRAND NEW bored throttle bodies I would think that a "bad batch" situation would be eliminated as they hand build these throttle bodies.
 

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There is a MAF sensor on my dart... and ill show you.

If you see the picture below you should look at the red circle and it shows (on my engine) a new sensor that is connected to the hose from the PCV to the intake. That sensor is NOT present on any 2013 dart engine.
View attachment 116476

If @alpinegreenneon wants to try and look up what that sensor is via the FSM then he can let you know what it is.

As for not remembering what I posted from almost a year ago... my bad, I forgot... but yes we all remember what everyone else posts I guess what we find ourselves skeptical about what they are saying. Speaking of, hows that 300+hp big turbo build coming? or did you give up on it? There is a post here that shows you sold your dart to someone else here?
Again, be more Careful what you post. Assuming some random sensor is a MAF sensor and then spreading misinformation helps No one. ;)

Also, getting upset because someone corrected you multiple times doesn't help either.

As for selling Darts, I've built and sold 1/2 doz now, but they are all 2.4/Auto with one odd ball 2.0/Auto because I know the 1.4l Needs the 6spd manual and even then, Most don't know how to drive a small displacement turbocharger mtr in a 3000+lb car. If you found a thread (I wasn't aware) did you take the time to read if it was a 1.4l turbo?

The Wife will never sell her Citrus Dart, specially after it's modified. As I stated before, I have other more pressing priorities and I'm hoping by spring I will be at the end of them. (3 last project on the go as we speak)

I Will bolt up that turbo and prove once and for all whether this platform can be successfully modded for 250+WHP, just don't know when :(
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Again, be more Careful what you post. Assuming some random sensor is a MAF sensor and then spreading misinformation helps No one. ;)

Also, getting upset because someone corrected you multiple times doesn't help either.

As for selling Darts, I've built and sold 1/2 doz now, but they are all 2.4/Auto with one odd ball 2.0/Auto because I know the 1.4l Needs the 6spd manual and even then, Most don't know how to drive a small displacement turbocharger mtr in a 3000+lb car. If you found a thread (I wasn't aware) did you take the time to read if it was a 1.4l turbo?

The Wife will never sell her Citrus Dart, specially after it's modified. As I stated before, I have other more pressing priorities and I'm hoping by spring I will be at the end of them. (3 last project on the go as we speak)

I Will bolt up that turbo and prove once and for all whether this platform can be successfully modded for 250+WHP, just don't know when :(
The only reason that I am upset is because you came into my thread, which I have put months of work into testing and basically said "NOPE, you're dumb... There is NO way that it can be what you are saying" When like I said, i tested 3 different brand new bored throttle bodies and all 3 of them caused the same CEL.

As for the other member who said they bought a dart off you, they did not specify what it was so I was just honestly asking. We have all been waiting to see you do this turbo modification.

Now, I KNOW for a fact that this engine can make up to 430+whp there are Punto Evo 1.4t built in Greece that are making this power right now... BUT these are EXTREMELY modified. I talking full internal replacements, camshafts, bigger turbo, injectors, exhaust manifolds... etc and the one big thing that you said that you dont need... a tune.
 

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Oof.

Came here for TB info... Ended up trading the dart for a Huffy BMX with some sweet pegs on the back.

Less trouble.

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk
 
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