it's now officially legal to tune/modify your cars electronics....for the next 2 year - Page 2
Follow Us On Follow us on Google Plus Follow us on Facebook
    Register

    it's now officially legal to tune/modify your cars electronics....for the next 2 year

    This is a discussion on it's now officially legal to tune/modify your cars electronics....for the next 2 year within the Dodge Dart Maintenance forums, part of the Dodge Dart Garage - The Mopar Zone category; Originally Posted by jsblanch While that may be true, I was commenting on the EPA regulations and the situation that ensued when SEMA claimed they ...

    User Tag List

    Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
    Results 11 to 20 of 20
    Like Tree4Likes

    Thread: it's now officially legal to tune/modify your cars electronics....for the next 2 year

    1. #11
      Jackman
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      This user has no status.
       

      Join Date
      May 2016
      Posts
      244
      Vehicle
      2013 Dart Limited/1.4T/Dual-Clutch Transmission/Blue Streak Pearl
      Liked
      50 times
      Mentioned
      14 Post(s)
      Tagged
      0 Thread(s)
      Quote Originally Posted by jsblanch View Post
      While that may be true, I was commenting on the EPA regulations and the situation that ensued when SEMA claimed they banned the construction of race cars (I also forgot to address to the person I was replying to that SEMA didn't really do anything, the EPA clarified that off-road vehicles would not be affected and that the regulations weren't actually changing at all). While I am a long way from California, I'm pretty confident in my claim that I would have no difficulty finding modified cars in your fine state driven by people who have had no government interactions as a result of said modifications. Out of curiosity, how, exactly, do they enforce such regulations? Do state investigators just pull over cars randomly and make you pop the hood so they can inspect everything? and how would they know if you had an OBDII flash tune?


      The emissions testing process in CA doesn't involve sticking things in the tailpipe anymore for OBDII cars. All they do now is plug in to the car and read the computer, and do a visual inspection. I'm not even sure if they put you on the dyno anymore while you're plugged in- it's been a while since I had to get an emissions test, and they didn't let me in the shop while they did it.

      They do, however, go through your car with a fine-toothed comb looking for parts or modifications which are not factory-installed during the visual inspection, whatever the software shows, and then they look to see if there's a CARB number on the part showing that it's authorized for on-road use. If there's not, you're screwed. If you made a DIY cold air intake? BZZT, nope. It doesn't have a CARB number on it, you're in trouble. You have the wrong exhaust? BZZT, nope. Unless you got it from someone that paid to have CARB certify it, you're not going to get to keep it. Etc.

      (CARB= California Air Resources Board)

    2. #12
      Supporting Member
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      jsblanch's Avatar
      Supporting Member
      is is wishing he was driving...
       

      Join Date
      Jul 2013
      Location
      Mississauga, ON
      Posts
      4,953
      Vehicle
      "Zippy" 2013 Rallye 1.4T DDCT - Pitch Black Ext. Black w/ Ruby Red Int
      Liked
      3176 times
      Gender
      Male
      Mentioned
      162 Post(s)
      Tagged
      1 Thread(s)
      Quote Originally Posted by PeterSteele View Post
      The emissions testing process in CA doesn't involve sticking things in the tailpipe anymore for OBDII cars. All they do now is plug in to the car and read the computer, and do a visual inspection. I'm not even sure if they put you on the dyno anymore while you're plugged in- it's been a while since I had to get an emissions test, and they didn't let me in the shop while they did it.

      They do, however, go through your car with a fine-toothed comb looking for parts or modifications which are not factory-installed during the visual inspection, whatever the software shows, and then they look to see if there's a CARB number on the part showing that it's authorized for on-road use. If there's not, you're screwed. If you made a DIY cold air intake? BZZT, nope. It doesn't have a CARB number on it, you're in trouble. You have the wrong exhaust? BZZT, nope. Unless you got it from someone that paid to have CARB certify it, you're not going to get to keep it. Etc.

      (CARB= California Air Resources Board)
      In Ontario, they stopped doing the tailpipe test several years ago as well. The reason was actually the cost of the test equipment. Now they plug their computer into the OBDII port, start the car, and download stuff. They didn't pop the hood or put the van on a lift, so I don't think a visual inspection is required. It's what you might call "a complete waste of time" or "stupid", with a minuscule failure rate that doesn't really justify doing this kind of testing at all, but it turns out that it was such a profitable program (for the provincial government) that they're making it free of charge going forward.

    3. #13
      Ride of the Month
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      This user has no status.
       

      Join Date
      May 2016
      Location
      Georgia
      Posts
      478
      Vehicle
      2014 Dodge Dart Rallye 2.4L Blacktop Edition
      Mods
      35% window tint all around Blacked out reverse lights and reflectors Custom designed Tigershark badg
      Liked
      220 times
      Gender
      Male
      Mentioned
      17 Post(s)
      Tagged
      0 Thread(s)
      Quote Originally Posted by jsblanch View Post
      How so? They only crack ECUs so that they can sell tunes for them, which has never actually been considered illegal. That's their only incentive (which they no doubt call a "necessary evil") for it and it hasn't changed.
      You can't tell me if the automakers had won, and gotten it to be illegal to mess with a cars ECU, that it would not have had an effect in the aftermarket. That was all I was trying to say...if the automakers are ever to get laws passed making it illegal to mess with a vehicles ECU, I think it would have a profound effect on the aftermarket.

    4. Remove Advertisements
      Dodge-Dart.org
      Advertisements
       

    5. #14
      Supporting Member
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      jsblanch's Avatar
      Supporting Member
      is is wishing he was driving...
       

      Join Date
      Jul 2013
      Location
      Mississauga, ON
      Posts
      4,953
      Vehicle
      "Zippy" 2013 Rallye 1.4T DDCT - Pitch Black Ext. Black w/ Ruby Red Int
      Liked
      3176 times
      Gender
      Male
      Mentioned
      162 Post(s)
      Tagged
      1 Thread(s)
      Quote Originally Posted by loxmith View Post
      You can't tell me if the automakers had won, and gotten it to be illegal to mess with a cars ECU, that it would not have had an effect in the aftermarket. That was all I was trying to say...if the automakers are ever to get laws passed making it illegal to mess with a vehicles ECU, I think it would have a profound effect on the aftermarket.
      Automakers could already make it impossible (or commercially non-viable) for aftermarket companies to mess with their ECUs if they really wanted to. If they used strong enough encryption and patented proprietary technology, they could make their ECUs impenetrable black boxes. However, that would cost money. In any case, I'm not sure why automakers would care all that much. Allowing people to flash tune the ECUs just means that they can legitimately void powertrain warranties out of hand, no questions asked, and no requirement to prove anything (neither your warranty nor the Magnusson-Moss Act provides you with any protection if you opt to change the configuration of your vehicle, and a flash tune by definition changes the configuration of the entire powertrain). Automakers care about modifications to the extent that they can use them to invalidate warranty coverage. I'd be more concerned that the EPA would make it illegal to modify ECUs when they realize that the first thing many VW owners with "bad" diesels will do after VW figures out a "fix" (if they ever do) will be to get an aftermarket tune to wipe away VW's neutering of their car.

    6. #15
      Ride of the Month
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      This user has no status.
       

      Join Date
      May 2016
      Location
      Georgia
      Posts
      478
      Vehicle
      2014 Dodge Dart Rallye 2.4L Blacktop Edition
      Mods
      35% window tint all around Blacked out reverse lights and reflectors Custom designed Tigershark badg
      Liked
      220 times
      Gender
      Male
      Mentioned
      17 Post(s)
      Tagged
      0 Thread(s)
      Quote Originally Posted by jsblanch View Post
      Automakers could already make it impossible (or commercially non-viable) for aftermarket companies to mess with their ECUs if they really wanted to. If they used strong enough encryption and patented proprietary technology, they could make their ECUs impenetrable black boxes. However, that would cost money. In any case, I'm not sure why automakers would care all that much. Allowing people to flash tune the ECUs just means that they can legitimately void powertrain warranties out of hand, no questions asked, and no requirement to prove anything (neither your warranty nor the Magnusson-Moss Act provides you with any protection if you opt to change the configuration of your vehicle, and a flash tune by definition changes the configuration of the entire powertrain). Automakers care about modifications to the extent that they can use them to invalidate warranty coverage. I'd be more concerned that the EPA would make it illegal to modify ECUs when they realize that the first thing many VW owners with "bad" diesels will do after VW figures out a "fix" (if they ever do) will be to get an aftermarket tune to wipe away VW's neutering of their car.
      LoL. Automakers don't care about modifications just so they can invalidate warranties. Most of the people I know who modify their cars could care less about warranties. Any gear head who is modifying his car while it is still under warranty, isn't taking his car in to the dealer for service, or they save their stock parts to put back on before they take it in, to try to get it fixed without paying. I think the auto companies are more concerned about modifications from a safety and public relations standpoint. Think of the headaches the FCA would have to deal with if all the Challengers they built started having engine failures, or catching fire on the road, due to a bad aftermarket tune that were readily available. The cars owner probably wouldn't fess up to having an aftermarket tune, and if the story were juicy enough, the news media wouldn't be reporting it that way. They'd just say something like "Dodge build quality suffers as Challangers engines keep blowing up." I think that is the reason why ALL the automakers don't want people messing with their cars...not warranties.
      pkgmsu2000 and Darth_Strife like this.

    7. #16
      Car Chief
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      This user has no status.
       

      Join Date
      Jun 2014
      Posts
      5,312
      Liked
      1915 times
      Gender
      Male
      Mentioned
      209 Post(s)
      Tagged
      1 Thread(s)
      Quote Originally Posted by loxmith View Post
      LoL. Automakers don't care about modifications just so they can invalidate warranties. Most of the people I know who modify their cars could care less about warranties. Any gear head who is modifying his car while it is still under warranty, isn't taking his car in to the dealer for service, or they save their stock parts to put back on before they take it in, to try to get it fixed without paying. I think the auto companies are more concerned about modifications from a safety and public relations standpoint. Think of the headaches the FCA would have to deal with if all the Challengers they built started having engine failures, or catching fire on the road, due to a bad aftermarket tune that were readily available. The cars owner probably wouldn't fess up to having an aftermarket tune, and if the story were juicy enough, the news media wouldn't be reporting it that way. They'd just say something like "Dodge build quality suffers as Challangers engines keep blowing up." I think that is the reason why ALL the automakers don't want people messing with their cars...not warranties.
      spot on! ultimately the dealers want you to come to them for every single little thing so they can make $$$$
      Darth_Strife likes this.

    8. #17
      Supporting Member
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      SmokyOwl's Avatar
      Supporting Member
      is never trading the thrill of
      living for the safety of
      existance.
       

      Join Date
      Mar 2015
      Location
      Southern Wisconsin
      Posts
      719
      Vehicle
      White 2013 Dodge Dart 1.4T Manual SXT
      Mods
      Weathertech floormats, CAI, Plastidipped white rims/pillars, various decals
      Liked
      350 times
      Gender
      Male
      Mentioned
      45 Post(s)
      Tagged
      0 Thread(s)
      Decisions made by any corporation are about the idea of making more money. That's all corporations care about. They don't care about their own employees, their product, or their customers. They care about their stock prices and bonuses. It's greed at it's finest.

      So whenever some company says a decision was based on safety....that's a lie. It's more about protecting themselves from being sued.
      "You hate your car. It is meant to be destroyed and repaired. It is merely a machine that is keeping you from attaining your true top speed. Press on the skinny pedal. Turn every once in a while. Fasten your belts securely. Drive it in anger." -Don Burress, Demon Rally Team


    9. #18
      Supporting Member
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      jsblanch's Avatar
      Supporting Member
      is is wishing he was driving...
       

      Join Date
      Jul 2013
      Location
      Mississauga, ON
      Posts
      4,953
      Vehicle
      "Zippy" 2013 Rallye 1.4T DDCT - Pitch Black Ext. Black w/ Ruby Red Int
      Liked
      3176 times
      Gender
      Male
      Mentioned
      162 Post(s)
      Tagged
      1 Thread(s)
      Quote Originally Posted by loxmith View Post
      LoL. Automakers don't care about modifications just so they can invalidate warranties. Most of the people I know who modify their cars could care less about warranties. Any gear head who is modifying his car while it is still under warranty, isn't taking his car in to the dealer for service, or they save their stock parts to put back on before they take it in, to try to get it fixed without paying. I think the auto companies are more concerned about modifications from a safety and public relations standpoint. Think of the headaches the FCA would have to deal with if all the Challengers they built started having engine failures, or catching fire on the road, due to a bad aftermarket tune that were readily available. The cars owner probably wouldn't fess up to having an aftermarket tune, and if the story were juicy enough, the news media wouldn't be reporting it that way. They'd just say something like "Dodge build quality suffers as Challangers engines keep blowing up." I think that is the reason why ALL the automakers don't want people messing with their cars...not warranties.
      If they really cared that much about public safety and the perception that their cars might be dangerous, the SRT program probably wouldn't exist, much less the Hellcat. They also wouldn't cut corners whenever they thought they could get away with it. Automakers are notorious for embracing the cold calculus that puts short-term profits ahead of the lives of their customers. I don't think this had to do with safety. Come to think of it, though, this thread is about intellectual property, and possibly the only reason the automakers defended their position in this case is that with IP law, failure to defend your IP means you are voluntarily giving up your ownership rights over it.

    10. #19
      Banned
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      is Faster than you.
       

      Join Date
      Dec 2014
      Posts
      773
      Vehicle
      2007 Focus ZX5, manual
      Mods
      2.3L Duratec Swap, Copper plugs, Custom 3' CAI, 3" TruBendz Exhaust, 3 inch Flex pipe, obx header, C
      Liked
      297 times
      Gender
      Male
      Mentioned
      17 Post(s)
      Tagged
      1 Thread(s)
      i have been tuning my car much longer then that anyways. i dont give a damn about a stupid law. this is why i do like Ford. they do not have this dumb encryption on their ECUs. i have seen the new NA focus with bolt ons hitting 210whp. its crazy guy was beating STs, lol.
      Last edited by Darth_Strife; 01-10-2017 at 08:43 PM.

    11. #20
      Jackman
      Rank
       
      Rep
       
      dgc333's Avatar
      This user has no status.
       

      Join Date
      Sep 2012
      Posts
      552
      Liked
      220 times
      Mentioned
      11 Post(s)
      Tagged
      0 Thread(s)
      Quote Originally Posted by jsblanch View Post
      It's only illegal to tamper with emission control systems, and has been for many years. Tuning your car does not inherently do that, and the "off-road use only" label is usually only applied to products that would do so (or would otherwise be illegal for on-road use, of course). No aftermarket parts maker is going to limit their ability to market their products by labeling something for off-road use only unless they really have a good reason to.
      Tuning your car has as much or more potential impact on the emissions as a CAI or any other part that typically requires an EPA exemption to be legal on the street. Unless it has an exemption you are kidding yourself if you don't think its illegal.

      I have a 15 turbo Mustang, the aftermarket tuners had tunes within a few months but it took Ford Performance almost two years to release a EPA certified tune because of the time it takes to perform the testing and get through the EPA certification process.

      All aftermarket manufactures hide behind the "For Off-Road Use Only" for the items they sell that potentially impact the larger ones will go and get CARB exemption s for those that really don't the rest just hide behind the statement and transfer the risk to you. You will find the words releasing them from responsibility somewhere in their litature.

      I would agree that your chances are very small that you would get caught but the EPA has gone after large organizations that try to skirt the rules, just look at VW. The proposed EPA legislation was an attempt to stop manufacturers from making parts intended to be used on street vehicles and hiding behind the "For Off-Road Use Only" banner.


      Dave

     

     
    Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

    Sponsored Links

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •  

    Similar Threads

    1. looking to modify
      By joe182 in forum Dodge Dart General Discussion
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 10-05-2014, 05:32 PM
    2. Any modify update file?
      By Busaryder1165 in forum Dodge Dart Tweakers Anonymous
      Replies: 2
      Last Post: 10-10-2013, 10:36 AM
    3. Dodge Dart is one of 10 Cars you MUST drive this year - from Left Lane News
      By McPhisto75 in forum Dodge Dart General Discussion
      Replies: 5
      Last Post: 05-24-2013, 05:45 PM
    4. Did you know if the CAI is 50 state legal? or C.A.R.B legal? legal in california?
      By pantuchin in forum Dodge Dart General Discussion
      Replies: 7
      Last Post: 01-28-2013, 10:51 PM
    5. Next Quirk in the electronics
      By DSBarnette in forum Dodge Dart Electrical Problems
      Replies: 5
      Last Post: 10-18-2012, 02:11 PM